Carbineer Archive

We need a stronger voice as Carbineers, currently out of the 3 ranged weapon classes we are the smallest group. Quite a few people are pistolers and riflemen and I am afraid if we don't actively post our bugs in game we will be the last to get looked at due to our small numbers.

Known bugs and problems with Carbines at the moment are:

-HAM costs (already being looked into)

-Legshot3 is the same as Legshot2

Scatter shot spam showing all damage as 1.

I have yet to see BurstShot2 actually do more damage than BurstShot1... but it does give different combat spam, and has higher HAM usage (by like 5%).

I was going to start a thread much like this, however, it appears you beat me to it. I'll list the issues that are bugging me. My apologies, this may be kind of long but I think it's worth reading. Buckle up.

• Lack of Variety

I fear that a lot of other carbines won't be used. I don't know if, after the HAM problem gets resolved, that all the other carbines will be made because they are actually good. If I go to a Vendor, I will always see EE3s or Laser Carbines (and when the HAM Bugs get fixed) DH17s. I remember DH17s were extremely popular in the beta. The only other weapon used other than the DH17, was the Laser Carbine. You would never see DXR6's or Elite Carbines when E11s were just as good. I have seen some extremely good DH17s and I know that after the HAM bug, they will be extremely popular. I'd also like to mention that there are less carbines than any other weapon. The pistols have the most kinds of weapons, followed up by rifles then carbines. I believe that other classes are having variety problems (Scout blasters, Laser rifles).

• Lack of Defense Bonuses

Here's the thing. When I first looked at the Carbineer tree in the beta, the first thing that came to my mind was, "wow.. it's empty." The other classes get defense bonuses to help defends themselves against the punishment creatures or other opponents may give. Does this mean the Carbineer is so good that it doesn't need any real defense bonuses? I'll show you the comparison to save your time.

Riflemen

• Ranged Defense: +25


• Melee Defense:+20


• Block: +20


• Def. vs Posture Change: +30


• Def. vs Stun: +10


• Def. vs Blind: +10


• Def. vs Dizzy: +10


• Cover: +80


• Rifle Crawl Speed: +20


• Rifle Aiming: +30


• Rifle Accuracy While Moving: +10

Pistoleer

• Dodge: +30


• Pistol Aiming: +16


• Def. vs Stun: +20


• Def. vs Blind: +20


• Def. vs Dizzy: +20


• Def. vs Posture Change: +20


• Def. vs Knockdown: +30


• Melee Defense: +13


• Accuracy While Standing: +15


• Ranged Defense: +7


• Accuracy While Moving: +30

Carbineer

• Counterattack: +20


• Def. vs Knockdown: +15


• Def. vs Intimidate: +15


• Accuracy While Moving: +30


• Ranged Defense: +7


• Carbine Aiming: +4

Clearly, the Carbineer is outmatched in Defense Bonuses. Don't just take a look at the quantity, but take the time to compare them together. There is no contest, the Carbineer appears like it has no defense bonuses. The only Defense bonuses that the carbineer has that the pistoleer does not, besides Counterattack (and dodge), is it's defenses vs. Intimadate and Knockdown.. and that is nothing to write home about. Especially when compared to the pistoleer's.

• CounterAttack?

I have counterattack and to me it seams that it hardly works. If it does work, I see a nice -Miss-on my screen. In the beta, I was a BH Pistol/Pistoleer. I almost mastered both and, for me, Dodge worked decently. It definately wasn't a sure thing I can tell you that and it seemed to only work while you were standing still or kneeling, but it worked quite a bit if you were kneeling. I don't have a problem with it not working all the time. I can understand that, especially since I haven't mastered the branch yet, but.. so far out of the 3 times I tried my hardest to counterattack, they missed. To me, it seems like counterattack doesn't do much anyway. Just a normal shot at the enemy, but you dodged their attack. If the counterattack isn't going to hit the opponent, maybe Dodge would work just fine.

• Action Shot

I belive that this is a bug. Carbineers seem to excell at knocking down an enemy or pushing it down a posture with it's powerful attacks, but it didn't say so on action shot itself. Supression Fire doesn't seem to do a thing for me, however, Action Shot works like a charm. Much like Supression Fire should be doing.

• Skills

It appears that upgrading to certain skills doesn't seem to do anything. I know this is a problem for a lot of classes. When I was a BH/Pistoleer, upgrading from Melee Defense 1 to Melee Defense 2 was a huge let down. However, the sames seems to be true for both Burst Shot 2 and Leg Shot 3. I'm also worrying about how much Crippling Shot is going to be alike to Burst Shot 2. Also, while I am at it, I believe that we have just as many skills as a Pistoleer, except that we have no skills that we learn upon mastering. Some may see this as a lack of motication to master. My motivation to master is so I can get what little bonuses I can from it.

These aresome of the topics that I can think about right now. Please feel free to comment or reply and post what you think of some things. Speak your minds about what you think. If you speak your mind we can all see problems that people are having. Problems that some are having won't cut it. Also, post how you feel against a pistoleer or a riflemen. Do you think they do better or worse than you? What changes do you think will greatly help out the carbineer and make it competitive to the other classes?

Soj,

Here's another thing that really gets to me. While pistoleers and rifleman have a new stlye in their Master tier, we get nothing but petty bonuses....

And what about the total bonuses we get overall compared to say, the BH carbine tree? BH carbine tree gives like 10/20 carbine bonus per tier, while the carbineer tree gives 5/10.....why? A BH should not be as good as a Carbineer...the carbineer is supposed to be the master of the carbine, so why are we getting shafted on bonuses?

I'd also like to mention this. I know this is a huge topic on some other forums, but...

BH Carbine > Master Carbineer.

I know it's hard work to be a BH, much harder than getting novice carbineer, but it'smore work to master a weapon specialization. Before in the Beta, back when BH's were called "Droid Handlers," people wanted them to be buffed up. I completely agreed, however, I never thought that they should be stronger than a Master Specialist and if they were, balanced with the master specialist. Consider this.

BH Pistol = Master Pistoleer.

Ok. Clearly the BH Pistol has better moves (such as Eye Shot and Torso Shot) and has better bonuses and is easier to achieve those bonuses. However, look at the Pistoleer. They have all sorts of defense bonuses to protect themselves. Also, they get better accuracy bonuses as well as dodges. Pistoleer also gets melee defense 1 and stopping shot, two very nice moves. If you think about it, you will most likely come to a conclusion thinking this: Bounty Hunters = Offensive, Pistoleers = Defensive. Pistoleers have defense specials and good moves, this makes them very good all around but some may say they prefer Eye Shot and Torso shot.

Call me crazy, but I think Bounty Hunters and Pistoleers are very closly balanced. But look at the Carbineer. You look at it and think, "what defenses does this class have?" We have a +15 knockdown defense. Wow. Ok, so the Bounty Hunter is offensive and has no defenses. I guess +15 knockdown is better than +0 knockdown, but not much. Not enough to make a difference, I think.

The Bounty Hunter clearly has some very nice carbineer skills. Underhand Shot, Fire knockdown. They are all knockdown moves that hit for as much as burst shot. Very nice, very useful. The carbine needs skills like. However, Carbineer's themselves have no defenses, even against BHs. Therefore, because of this, the Bounty Hunter is clearly better than a carbineer. I have Bounty Hunter Carbine 4 and everything on my way to mastering Carbineer has seemed like nothing but a complement. I believe that the lack of defenses has MUCH to do with this.

Aso think that moves like Wild Shot won't really matter. And moves like Burst Shot 2 and Crippling Shot will be too similar (high damage, random pool).

I'm pretty sure that Carbineer's have as many skills as Pistoleers. However, all of our skills are within our branches. We do not have a master skill because of this, I think. Perhaps if they moved Wild Shots into the marksman tree and pushed crippling shot up to master. /shrug

And I'd like to see all the names become one, once and for all. Thanks for mentioning it.

The state of carbines is just messed up right now.

Carbines should be the ideal medium-range assault weapon, falling in between personal defense weapons (pistols) and long-range heavy support (rifles). So we do have some nice attacks and not as many defenses, but between a lot of the specials working like poop and the horrible ham costs, carbines are horrible. It would also be nice if pistols weren't accurate out to 60m.

If pistols had virtually no accuracy beyond 20-25m, there would be valid reasons to go carbine. But as it stands, pistols have (1) some nice attacks too, like bodyshot3 actually works, as opposed to legshot3, (2) long range accuracy just as good as carbines, (3) nice hardware that doesn't kill you after 5 specials, and (4) nice defense modifiers.

Aside from the fact that a lot of us like carbines for personal reasons, there is no valid rational reason to go carbine right now. The pistol is the go-anywhere, do-anything gun that carbines should be. The pistol should be a close-range personal defense weapon, but instead it's the preferred assault gun.

all the points made so far are good and id have to agree, but at this point im a little doubtful of any help any time soon. Holo made his little "fix the stocks" post and since then there hasnt been a **edit** word out of him. we have serious issues that go beyond stocks and i think at the very least we deserve a simple answer as to whether they even realize the issues, whether they are going to fix them, etc....

its even more frustrating when i see that holo can manage to post 30+ times in one day about probots and CH, but in 2 weeks, he cant find the time to spend 5 minutes in the carbineer forum to answer a feew questions. By paying for this game, we are entitled to some answers, i dont expect a fix this minute, but no answers in 2 weeks is completely unacceptable.

i think the pistoleer defense bonuses are fine, IF they made it so that pistoleers had to be closer in range to the target, currently pistoleers can hit just as well as any other class at max distance. and ivedone it myself, so no need to tell me it isnt like that. also it is wrong in my opinion that BH carbine tree is is better than carbineer class.

jojo

I think the Pistoleer defenses are alright, yes. I think it WOULD make more sense if they actually had to use it (i.e. not firing from max range but closer up). I was refering to the Carbineer's defenses as not being up to par with the pistoleer's or riflemen's. Clearly, the carbineer is completely outmatched when it comes to defenses. If you ask me, the riflemen has very nice defense bonuses to help it out in what it does. Same applies for the pistoleer. I mean, riflemen need to be able to cover, and crawl and have ranged defense and a little melee defense. Pistoleers, who should be close up near the enemy and not standing at 64m, NEED those defense bonuses so they can defend themselves against melee attacks.

But what about the Carbineers? It seems like there is no middle to this. The defense bonuses on the carbine are laughable. The carbine isn't suppose to be the max range weapon like the rifle nor the melee range weapon like the pistol. It's suppose to be the middle weapon range. It deserves to have more ranged bonuses than just +15 to knockdown and intimidate.

SOJ, the purpose of the carbine is to kite.

if you notice, carbine is the only tree to get + accuracy while moving. thats the key to playing the carbine.

run in circles, while they miss and you hit. wether it works or not, i dunno. but thats how its SAPPOSED to work.

Fine compilation.

I did similar work for Squad Leader earlier today:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=squad_leader&message.id=758

For me, in carbines, the issues are:

HAM cost, counterattack, Legshot3/Burstshot2, SuppressionFire, ActionShot, lack of weapons, nothing at Master, and it takes forever to get ChargeShot1 (which should be a bread-and-butter skill).

Oh yeah, and settle the Carabineer/Carbineer/Carbinier thing.