Carbineer Archive
Thread: If Pistoleers get what they want, then for Carbineers I demand...
I have been utterly apalled by some of the things Pistoleers have requested for their profession and how it seems very likely they will get some of these things. These things include:
-Dual Pistols
-Pistol Holsters
-"Cool" Pistol Twirl Animations
-Ability To Go Head To Head With Bounty Hunters
I cannot believe that Pistoleers are asking for this stuff in light of the many problems of other professions. I find this very self-centered and am furthermore upset that devs are even CONSIDERING adding some of these things before fixing the mile-long list of problems at hand.
IF Pistoleers get these ABSURD demands met, then for the Carbineer class I ask for:
-Fully Automatic Carbines With Faster Attack Speed (What's up with a pistol being faster than a semi/fully automatic weapon?)
-Carbine Butt Special
-Dual Carbines (It could be done.)
-"Cool" Carbine Laser Sights
-Ability To Go Head To Head With Bounty Hunters (I mean, c'mon, Pistoleers are not the only ones who are being beaten by Bounty Hunters.)
I cannot stress how upset I will be if Pistoleers get some of these things before much more critical issues are taken care of.
hehe, dual carbines... I would like to see a berserk like special that lowers out atack speed to like .2 but doesnt let us use specials. Heheheheheh, break that out on someone in PvP... hehehehe get 5 shots in before a pistoleer get in 1... hehehehe
ok i am a pistoleer and came here to see if the carbineers are having the same issues as us, and low and behold i find misinformatiion about the pistoleer.
seriously we dont want cool twirl animations theres bigger problems that need fixing. i cant even believe they put that down.
we dont want holsters again there are bigger problems to fix
we dont want to be able to go head to head with bh's in every aspect just pistol vs. pistol. as of right now the bh's have a speed/accuracy bonus with 4 pistol boxes filledthat is greater than the pistoleers speed/accuracy at master 16 boxes filled. i am not sure ifthe bh's get a speed/accuracy bonus in carbine that isgreater than yours at master but if they do you guys should besomewhat iritated also
atimes wrote:
they do but even so I don't feel they are "vastly superior" that some of the other carbineers do.
Atimes, at least to me the problem for both Pistoleers and Carbineers is not with the Master Bounty Hunter. It's with the MasterPistoleer or MasterCarbineer that gets one skill tree and can suddenly out class both Master Bounty Hunters (since they don't have enough skill points to master an elite ranged profession) and a Master Pistoleer/Carbineer who spent their points on other professions. Don't get me wrong, I like the flexibility in the skill system and I don't want a rigid class system! Generalists should be viable and have their own advantages, but in the case outlined above they have too much of an edge over "pure" Bounty Hunters and the elite ranged specialist who aren't min-maxers. IMHO, something needs to be done that willnot decrease thepower of a master BH, but make people have to invest more to get to that power.
The power that comes from the BH/carbineer(pistoleer) combo is from the speed boosts. Doing both trees locks you down at 1 sec reload no matter what skills you are using. The reason for this is that +10 speed really is 10% faster reload. Using just default attack, at +50% you do double damage, at 75% quadruple and it just keeps growing exponentially. This, ulitmately, is the problem. SoE will need to cap the speed not at 1 second but at perhaps +50 or something. Or maybe even +75. But +100 or more speed is just insane amounts of damage.
The speed bonuses (if implemented anything close to sanely) would be a one time thing as follows
refire rate=weapon.speed/skill.weapon.speed
And when you learn a new skill it simply increments skill.weapon.speed
Thus, speed bonuses are not exponential.
Naysar wrote:
The speed bonuses (if implemented anything close to sanely) would be a one time thing as follows
refire rate=weapon.speed/skill.weapon.speed
And when you learn a new skill it simply increments skill.weapon.speed
Thus, speed bonuses are not exponential.
Naysar, they may not be exponential, but it still helps if there isn't a hard cap.Forexample:
+30 (Master Marksman) + 45(Master Carbineer) =Carbine Speed +75
+30 + 45 +50 (Bounty Hunter Carbine Specialization) = Carbine Speed +125
3.5/75 = 0.0467
3.5/125 = 0.028
[(0.0467-0.028)/0.0467]*100% = 40.04%
So the min-maxer is 40.04% faster than a Master Carbineer with Master Marksman.
+30(Master Marksman) +50(Master Bounty Hunter) = Carbine Speed +80
+30 + 45 +50 (Bounty Hunter Carbine Specialization) = Carbine Speed +125
3.5/80 = 0.04375
3.5/125 = 0.028
[(0.04375-0.028)/0.04375]*100%= 36%
The min-maxer is faster than a Master Bounty Hunter, by 36%.
Kaelle_DB wrote:
LOL dual carbines.... ::Imagines running around like rambo::
think Ahnold in "Predator" .. dual M-16 owned
Naysar wrote:
Why shouldn't they be better? They have more skills. Perhaps some tweaking should be done to reduce the difference a little (cap at 100 perhaps). This would just be to prevent the combination from becoming "uber" in PvP combat.However I don't have a problem with someone who dedicated 100% of their skill points to being the best guy with a carbine on the server being better at it than me.
Naysar, my problem is I see this as a unforseen and unintended side-effect of how they planned out the skill tree. Basically, a generalist or "dabbler" is far superior to a spealist (ie Master Bounty Hunter) in two very important areas; spead and accuracy. I love the fact that you can mix and match skills but in such a system there should be no one combination thathas those kind of advantages without some sort of disadvantages (even ifthey aresituational).
If you look at the combination I consider to be min-maxing (Master Carbineer+Bounty Hunter Carbine) there is no disadvantage when compared to either a Master Bounty Hunter or a Master Carbineer without those extra skills. The min-maxer not only has higher speed and accuracy than the Master Bounty Hunter but has all the Master Carbineer specials, and extra speed and accuracy,includingbetter accuracy while moving. Also the Min-maxer has quite an edge in raw speed and stationaryaccuracy over the "pure" Master Carbineer. I am most concerned about the former, I could live with the latter situtation if the min-maxer's edge was reduced.
I want to make something clear, most of my arguement is on "principle". I'm not planning on becoming a bounty hunter of any type. In fact, my plan for my character is Master Carbineer, Novice Ranger, and 4/4/4/1 in Medic. So as you can see I'm planning a more rounded character and have nothing against mixing and matching skills. I am noteven mastering Marksmanso I will beslightly less effective than a Master Carbineer that does. Yet,it is a trade off I knowingly made so I couldget other skills I wanted, that's howa skill system like this should work. However, I must restate that any combination which is even precieved to be vastly more powerful than all the rest HAS TO BE AVOIDED!The "uber-combination syndromn" isan anathemato any sort of balanced skill system.If it is instilled into too many of the players it could lead to an endless cycle of nerfs and fixes as hard-core min-maxers flock to one "perfect skill set" to another. This is one of the things that really hurt UO, I don't want to see it in this game!
Naysar about PvP, I'm not a big PvPer but I doparticipate in it sometimes so I am aware ofits particular issues. In this game, the players never increase their HAM (SWG's version of hitpoints) which has its pros and cons. On the plus side a new character cangroup with experiencedcharacters and not be a huge liability.It also,means that newbie marksmencan still bea potentialthreat to a more experiencedcombat character, especially if there is a group of the newbies. Butwith reguards toPvP there is a notable downside, players can increase the damage they do, andthe speed they do it. However, there are limited ways for them to increase their ability to absorb damage. Armor and "buffs" do help, but they do not scale in the same way as the ability to dish-out damage. All of this is well and good (in fact it's far more realistic than most MMORPGs or RPGs), but itends upmagnifing any difference in combat abilities dramatically. In this type of system any serious advantage had better have serious costs or only be advantagous in limited situations. IMHO, certian combinations like Master Pistoleer+BH Pistol or Master Carbineer+BH Carbine fail this criteria.