Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: BH TEF AND CLOAKING
GlargTheKelfn wrote:
remove xp loss and jedi will stay and fight, as it is there is no incentive to fight. if a jedi beats the bh, what happens? his vis goes up.
smartest thing for a jedi to do is cloak and run.
If this were true, then why did the Jedi in the OP continute to fight 3 or 4 times with the use of Cloak. Why not simply run away?
What I believe many Jedi failed to see about the old BH - Jedi TEF was the additonal frustration of when the Jedi would come out and fight, run back inside, come out and fight, run back inside. It was an insult to start with that the Jedi could even run into his/her house to hide. It was an injury that they kept doing it over and over again. When cloak is used this way, as I have seen it used this way myself...it reminds me a lot of that whole TEF issue. All the Devs did was remove the "door", and now the Jedi stands less then 5m from us.
Eskie wrote:
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
You act like that is going to change their minds. Some folks don't want an even fight. They'd just be happier if we stood there and took the DB without a struggle.
Eskie wrote:
laodamas wrote:
Eskie wrote:
laodamas wrote:
Best thing I could see happening to cloak is make it a total escape tactic. What I mean by this is a Jedi can not regen force while cloaked. No natural regen, no channeling or meditation. Cloak should allow a Jedi to escape, not a means of stopping a fight so she/he can regen for round two. If a Jedi channels or meditates while cloaked it should drop cloak and have a timer before it can be reactivated. This would allow a Jedi to escape to a safe area to lose TEF and then regen. If a Jedi can not beat you and has to cloak to regen what is the point. When she/he comes back you will have regened all your pools as well, plus cleared some filling for more food. So it's just starting from scratch. If they were gonna lose the first time it probably wont change the second time.
In GCW battles you can take down cloakers easily since they lack defenses and a rifle salvo from 3 or 4 rifleman easily drops them.
For BH / Jedi encounters you miss the point entirely. A cloaker will not come back to fight the BH if he used cloak to escape. The BH needs to chase him and engage him again - why would a Jedi come back to be slaughtered.
If the Jedi used cloak as a counter to being rooted / kited, the BH who stays until the Jedi decloaks right next to him to land a KD / Armor Break / Power Hit / Head Hit combo deserves to die. Better run in the opposite direction next time when a Jedi manages to cloak - it could have been to negate the first strike capability of the BH.
If you read the op he describes a situation where the Jedi cloaks, regens and then attacks again. This does happen, but not all Jedi use it in that manner. My idea of how cloak would work would not change anything to a Jedi who runs with no intention of re-engaging his attacker. He would escape to safety, uncloak in a safe area and regen. It would also not effect the ability to gank a cloaker before he can cloak. All it would change is the described scenario in the op. What it would do is define cloak as a method of escape. Basically the same as the change to AI to make it a last stand, win or lose special, it just defines it's role.
Before anyone asks, I am a Master Defender and have only used AI in a fight to the death role. Have never used AI as a means of escape in a PvP encounter, only used it a few times in the early days of curb as a PvE escape tool, but was still testing what lvl of mobs could be handled solo. I do not have cloak, nor do I have a problem with the way cloak works now. Just tossed out an idea based on the op.
The problem is that Force Wielders rely on hit and run attacks because they dont have the offensive capabilities lightsabers have nor do they have a lot of Defender because Powers usually relies on Enhancers to make up the higher Force costs of attacks. They need cloak to be useable in the exact way the original poster described.
Yeah, unfortunately.
But most people become pretty quiet and stop crying for nerfs at least in the thread such points are made - and even if they dont stop crying for a nerf and a dev actually reads such a thread, he at least reads those points, also.
laodamas wrote:
Eskie wrote:
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
You act like that is going to change their minds. Some folks don't want an even fight. They'd just be happier if we stood there and took the DB without a struggle.
Eskie wrote:
laodamas wrote:
Eskie wrote:
laodamas wrote:
Best thing I could see happening to cloak is make it a total escape tactic. What I mean by this is a Jedi can not regen force while cloaked. No natural regen, no channeling or meditation. Cloak should allow a Jedi to escape, not a means of stopping a fight so she/he can regen for round two. If a Jedi channels or meditates while cloaked it should drop cloak and have a timer before it can be reactivated. This would allow a Jedi to escape to a safe area to lose TEF and then regen. If a Jedi can not beat you and has to cloak to regen what is the point. When she/he comes back you will have regened all your pools as well, plus cleared some filling for more food. So it's just starting from scratch. If they were gonna lose the first time it probably wont change the second time.
In GCW battles you can take down cloakers easily since they lack defenses and a rifle salvo from 3 or 4 rifleman easily drops them.
For BH / Jedi encounters you miss the point entirely. A cloaker will not come back to fight the BH if he used cloak to escape. The BH needs to chase him and engage him again - why would a Jedi come back to be slaughtered.
If the Jedi used cloak as a counter to being rooted / kited, the BH who stays until the Jedi decloaks right next to him to land a KD / Armor Break / Power Hit / Head Hit combo deserves to die. Better run in the opposite direction next time when a Jedi manages to cloak - it could have been to negate the first strike capability of the BH.
If you read the op he describes a situation where the Jedi cloaks, regens and then attacks again. This does happen, but not all Jedi use it in that manner. My idea of how cloak would work would not change anything to a Jedi who runs with no intention of re-engaging his attacker. He would escape to safety, uncloak in a safe area and regen. It would also not effect the ability to gank a cloaker before he can cloak. All it would change is the described scenario in the op. What it would do is define cloak as a method of escape. Basically the same as the change to AI to make it a last stand, win or lose special, it just defines it's role.Before anyone asks, I am a Master Defender and have only used AI in a fight to the death role. Have never used AI as a means of escape in a PvP encounter, only used it a few times in the early days of curb as a PvE escape tool, but was still testing what lvl of mobs could be handled solo. I do not have cloak, nor do I have a problem with the way cloak works now. Just tossed out an idea based on the op.
The problem is that Force Wielders rely on hit and run attacks because they dont have the offensive capabilities lightsabers have nor do they have a lot of Defender because Powers usually relies on Enhancers to make up the higher Force costs of attacks. They need cloak to be useable in the exact way the original poster described.
Yeah, unfortunately.
But most people become pretty quiet and stop crying for nerfs at least in the thread such points are made - and even if they dont stop crying for a nerf and a dev actually reads such a thread, he at least reads those points, also.
Like I said earlier, if a Jedi cloaks to regen because he couldnt beat the person in one try he probably wont win in subsequent tries either. While you are regening so is the opponet. All you accomplish is restarting the fight from the beginning. If you cant win a 1vs1 fight before your force pool runs out, then accept the fact you cant beat your opponet and escape to safety.
Powers dont cloak when they are about to lose. Powers is a hit-and-run template for guerilla warfare - de-cloak, do some damage, and get out of there before most people realize you ever were there in the first place, then rinse and repeat. Where a Defender has +500 to melee, ranged and Force defenses a Force Wielder has cloak to keep from getting hit. Powers heavily rely on states, especially Knockdown - the first attack of a Powers Jedi should be a KD to keep the opponent from damage dealing, then inflict some damage and stick the Choke DOT, and then disappear again.
Still if we go by the op of this thread I am talking about a Jedi who uses cloak to avoid fighting while he regens. The op describes a Jedi who cloaked, didnt run and used meditate/channel to regen his force pool for the next round. The idea I came up with would only punish this type of Jedi. A Jedi who runs in cloaked, uncloaks for a few attacks, recloaks to avoid damage, moves off to make another run from a different direction whithin a few seconds would not suffer from this idea. You do not regen much force with innate regen in 30 seconds so the penalty would be minimal. The only time a timer would come into play is if you used channel or meditate while cloaked.
Eskie wrote:
laodamas wrote:
Eskie wrote:
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
You act like that is going to change their minds. Some folks don't want an even fight. They'd just be happier if we stood there and took the DB without a struggle.
Eskie wrote:
laodamas wrote:
Eskie wrote:
laodamas wrote:
Best thing I could see happening to cloak is make it a total escape tactic. What I mean by this is a Jedi can not regen force while cloaked. No natural regen, no channeling or meditation. Cloak should allow a Jedi to escape, not a means of stopping a fight so she/he can regen for round two. If a Jedi channels or meditates while cloaked it should drop cloak and have a timer before it can be reactivated. This would allow a Jedi to escape to a safe area to lose TEF and then regen. If a Jedi can not beat you and has to cloak to regen what is the point. When she/he comes back you will have regened all your pools as well, plus cleared some filling for more food. So it's just starting from scratch. If they were gonna lose the first time it probably wont change the second time.
In GCW battles you can take down cloakers easily since they lack defenses and a rifle salvo from 3 or 4 rifleman easily drops them.
For BH / Jedi encounters you miss the point entirely. A cloaker will not come back to fight the BH if he used cloak to escape. The BH needs to chase him and engage him again - why would a Jedi come back to be slaughtered.
If the Jedi used cloak as a counter to being rooted / kited, the BH who stays until the Jedi decloaks right next to him to land a KD / Armor Break / Power Hit / Head Hit combo deserves to die. Better run in the opposite direction next time when a Jedi manages to cloak - it could have been to negate the first strike capability of the BH.
If you read the op he describes a situation where the Jedi cloaks, regens and then attacks again. This does happen, but not all Jedi use it in that manner. My idea of how cloak would work would not change anything to a Jedi who runs with no intention of re-engaging his attacker. He would escape to safety, uncloak in a safe area and regen. It would also not effect the ability to gank a cloaker before he can cloak. All it would change is the described scenario in the op. What it would do is define cloak as a method of escape. Basically the same as the change to AI to make it a last stand, win or lose special, it just defines it's role.
Before anyone asks, I am a Master Defender and have only used AI in a fight to the death role. Have never used AI as a means of escape in a PvP encounter, only used it a few times in the early days of curb as a PvE escape tool, but was still testing what lvl of mobs could be handled solo. I do not have cloak, nor do I have a problem with the way cloak works now. Just tossed out an idea based on the op.
The problem is that Force Wielders rely on hit and run attacks because they dont have the offensive capabilities lightsabers have nor do they have a lot of Defender because Powers usually relies on Enhancers to make up the higher Force costs of attacks. They need cloak to be useable in the exact way the original poster described.
Yeah, unfortunately.
But most people become pretty quiet and stop crying for nerfs at least in the thread such points are made - and even if they dont stop crying for a nerf and a dev actually reads such a thread, he at least reads those points, also.
Like I said earlier, if a Jedi cloaks to regen because he couldnt beat the person in one try he probably wont win in subsequent tries either. While you are regening so is the opponet. All you accomplish is restarting the fight from the beginning. If you cant win a 1vs1 fight before your force pool runs out, then accept the fact you cant beat your opponet and escape to safety.
Powers dont cloak when they are about to lose. Powers is a hit-and-run template for guerilla warfare - de-cloak, do some damage, and get out of there before most people realize you ever were there in the first place, then rinse and repeat. Where a Defender has +500 to melee, ranged and Force defenses a Force Wielder has cloak to keep from getting hit. Powers heavily rely on states, especially Knockdown - the first attack of a Powers Jedi should be a KD to keep the opponent from damage dealing, then inflict some damage and stick the Choke DOT, and then disappear again.
laodamas wrote:
(...) Still if we go by the op of this thread I am talking about a Jedi who uses cloak to avoid fighting while he regens. The op describes a Jedi who cloaked, didnt run and used meditate/channel to regen his force pool for the next round. The idea I came up with would only punish this type of Jedi. A Jedi who runs in cloaked, uncloaks for a few attacks, recloaks to avoid damage, moves off to make another run from a different direction whithin a few seconds would not suffer from this idea. You do not regen much force with innate regen in 30 seconds so the penalty would be minimal. The only time a timer would come into play is if you used channel or meditate while cloaked.
Due to the Force cost of Force Wielder attacks a Force Wielder also relies on Force Channel
As far as I know Force Meditate is not possible to initiate while cloaked currently, but you can cloak after starting the meditation.
LintonLisa wrote:
cloak is a huge investment of skills, any jedi with cloak is much much weaker in pvp than most other jedi. The only advantage they have is being able to run.
Its a combat ability, why remove it?
cloak is not a huge investment in skills and that is the problem.
i ama master powers master saber jedi. the problem that is currently with cloak is that it is basically a master level skill that can be had for only one box 4 of investment in skill points. what would offset the power of cloak is moving it to mastery of force wielder. this would force the jedi to either forgo a defense or go without an offense.
with cloak inx4xx it allows jedi to dabble and bypass the negatives of going master powers. and THAT is the problem.
Rukahs wrote:
I'm a Lvl 74 Bh and Went after my mark , all was going good till his force runs out , so he cloaks mid battle and meditats right in front of me regens and his doc friend rebuffs him , then he uncloaks and we go at it again same thing he runs off cloaks and regens mid battle , and then does it a third time this battle lasted about 45 mins cause he was a wuss and would run off cloak and heal,
First Off BH TEF Should be no cloaking durning the fight , if they cant get in a house why be able to cloak
Second Off The Doc healing him causehis tef ran off cause he was cloaked so long
Yes I died cause i couldnt run off and hide , and yes lvl 74 vs 80 i should have died
What do you true bh think
hamhamthe3rd wrote:
Rukahs wrote:
I'm a Lvl 74 Bh and Went after my mark , all was going good till his force runs out , so he cloaks mid battle and meditats right in front of me regens and his doc friend rebuffs him , then he uncloaks and we go at it again same thing he runs off cloaks and regens mid battle , and then does it a third time this battle lasted about 45 mins cause he was a wuss and would run off cloak and heal,First Off BH TEF Should be no cloaking durning the fight , if they cant get in a house why be able to cloakSecond Off The Doc healing him cause his tef ran off cause he was cloaked so longYes I died cause i couldnt run off and hide , and yes lvl 74 vs 80 i should have diedWhat do you true bh think
this is something that i wish i could do. i cant even sit down while in combat let alone meditate. its been awhile since ive played powers but when i had it you had to meditate first then cloak. couldnt cloak then meditate.
As far as I can tell you cannot /sit while in combat, and you need to /sit before being able to meditate. Furthermore, a Doc cannot buff a cloaked Jedi with BH TEF unless he is using two exploits: Somehow assisting another player with a BH TEF and being able to target a cloaked Jedi (or being able to circumvent the need to target a cloaked player before applying buffs).
Eskie wrote:
hamhamthe3rd wrote:
Rukahs wrote:
I'm a Lvl 74 Bh and Went after my mark , all was going good till his force runs out , so he cloaks mid battle and meditats right in front of me regens and his doc friend rebuffs him , then he uncloaks and we go at it again same thing he runs off cloaks and regens mid battle , and then does it a third time this battle lasted about 45 mins cause he was a wuss and would run off cloak and heal,
First Off BH TEF Should be no cloaking durning the fight , if they cant get in a house why be able to cloak
Second Off The Doc healing him cause his tef ran off cause he was cloaked so long
Yes I died cause i couldnt run off and hide , and yes lvl 74 vs 80 i should have died
What do you true bh think
this is something that i wish i could do. i cant even sit down while in combat let alone meditate. its been awhile since ive played powers but when i had it you had to meditate first then cloak. couldnt cloak then meditate.
As far as I can tell you cannot /sit while in combat, and you need to /sit before being able to meditate. Furthermore, a Doc cannot buff a cloaked Jedi with BH TEF unless he is using two exploits: Somehow assisting another player with a BH TEF and being able to target a cloaked Jedi (or being able to circumvent the need to target a cloaked player before applying buffs).
I believe the poster said the Jedi would wait until the TEF wore off then the Doc would apply the buffs again. You can apply the buffs to a cloaked Jediif you type out the command (I think).
Barb-Wire wrote:
LintonLisa wrote:
cloak is a huge investment of skills, any jedi with cloak is much much weaker in pvp than most other jedi. The only advantage they have is being able to run.
Its a combat ability, why remove it?
cloak is not a huge investment in skills and that is the problem.
i ama master powers master saber jedi. the problem that is currently with cloak is that it is basically a master level skill that can be had for only one box 4 of investment in skill points. what would offset the power of cloak is moving it to mastery of force wielder. this would force the jedi to either forgo a defense or go without an offense.
with cloak inx4xx it allows jedi to dabble and bypass the negatives of going master powers. and THAT is the problem.
/agree
WookieOgre wrote:
Eskie wrote:
hamhamthe3rd wrote:
Rukahs wrote:
I'm a Lvl 74 Bh and Went after my mark , all was going good till his force runs out , so he cloaks mid battle and meditats right in front of me regens and his doc friend rebuffs him , then he uncloaks and we go at it again same thing he runs off cloaks and regens mid battle , and then does it a third time this battle lasted about 45 mins cause he was a wuss and would run off cloak and heal,First Off BH TEF Should be no cloaking durning the fight , if they cant get in a house why be able to cloakSecond Off The Doc healing him cause his tef ran off cause he was cloaked so longYes I died cause i couldnt run off and hide , and yes lvl 74 vs 80 i should have diedWhat do you true bh think
this is something that i wish i could do. i cant even sit down while in combat let alone meditate. its been awhile since ive played powers but when i had it you had to meditate first then cloak. couldnt cloak then meditate.
As far as I can tell you cannot /sit while in combat, and you need to /sit before being able to meditate. Furthermore, a Doc cannot buff a cloaked Jedi with BH TEF unless he is using two exploits: Somehow assisting another player with a BH TEF and being able to target a cloaked Jedi (or being able to circumvent the need to target a cloaked player before applying buffs).
I believe the poster said the Jedi would wait until the TEF wore off then the Doc would apply the buffs again. You can apply the buffs to a cloaked Jedi if you type out the command (I think).
Im not commenting if this is the case or not, im just saying using this would be an exploit because you are using a detour around the non-targetable state that a cloaked Jedi should be in - not targetable means being on ones own and not getting attacked nor getting assistance.
mmaness wrote:
Barb-Wire wrote:
LintonLisa wrote:
cloak is a huge investment of skills, any jedi with cloak is much much weaker in pvp than most other jedi. The only advantage they have is being able to run.
Its a combat ability, why remove it?
cloak is not a huge investment in skills and that is the problem.
i ama master powers master saber jedi. the problem that is currently with cloak is that it is basically a master level skill that can be had for only one box 4 of investment in skill points. what would offset the power of cloak is moving it to mastery of force wielder. this would force the jedi to either forgo a defense or go without an offense.
with cloak in x4xx it allows jedi to dabble and bypass the negatives of going master powers. and THAT is the problem.
/agree
Actually Force Cloak is nowhere near a Master level skill. Although it is annoying for templates who dont have enough crowd control to keep a cloaker from cloaking (MBH / MCM, MDef / MLS come to mind, to name a few), it is not as powerful as Avoid Incap, Force Choke, Regain Consciousness or Stasis.
Furthermore, Force Wielder is already the most dabbler-unfriendly profession around and Force Cloak is about the only thing worth dabbling for - all else is taken care of by the accuracy and damage modifiers spread throughout the whole profession.
It is not worth 89 skill points, its about the same level as Force Aura, Force Armor, Advanced Force Heal and Improved Saber Armor Break currently, which is a perfectly fine location.